Midi-out Velocity problems

[rolandds]

Bovist ,

2 months ago I bought all the boards to build a complete new HX3 organ , which is ready to play now.
For the FATAR TP/80 5 keyboards scanning i bought a FatarScan2 board .
These FATARS have a quite short travel .

Following the product description on the Keyboarpartners webshop,
using this board, the HX3 delivers key velocity MIDI output.

In practice , not at all ! :(
Even not after firmware update 3.924.

All the 127 velocity steps seem to be compressed at the lower end of
(i think ) an exponential velocity curve , and as a result you have no velocity control at all.

Impossible to play an external midi piano for instance , with any dynamic touch reponse .
All the notes you play, have the same volume , independent of the way you touch the key.

I monitored the midi-out with a midi analyzer and saw that the HX3 indeed generates velocity values between 0 and 127
but the range between play very soft or -hard is so narrow (almost nothing )
that it’s impossible to play with a dynamic volume.

Notes, even sometimes are muted, because the HX3 gives them, seemly at random, a velocity 0 .

Following discussions about the problem on this forum,
this is already an rather old problem ( several years ? )

Is there any solution for this inconvenience ?
Can we do/upgrade/change something by ourself .

This is a very annoying problem , and certainly not normal for such an excellent product as the HX3.

[happyfreddy]

Carsten is informed and will look after the problem with MIDI Velocity

[Balou]

Hallo zusammen,

ich habe mit der Version 3.925 auch die Probleme mit der FatarScan2 und MIDI-Out. Außerdem kann ich mein Hallprogramm zwar auf Reverb 2 abspeichern, bekomme nach Neustart aber immer die Einstellung 0 ohne Hall, obwohl die Anzeige Reverb 2 als Default anzeigt. Das war mit 3.922 nicht so.

VG

Balou

[happyfreddy]

Hallo,
Gerade mit Carsten telefoniert.
Er läßt ausrichten im Laufe des morgigen Tages eine neue Version zum Download bereitzustellen.
Hauptpunkt der Änderungen : DYNAMIK - Routine

Probleme mit dem Hall und dessen Abspeicherung sind nicht bekannt

[Balou]

Hallo happyfreddy,

ich habe gerade die neue FatarScanCore #24 geladen und nun funktionieren die dymamischen Daten! Aber schon nach kurzem Spiel auf der Fatar Waterfall-Tastatur wird mir klar, dass ich gerne eine andere Dynamik-Kurve einstellen würde, so wie ich das bei meinem Masterkeyboard auch machen kann, denn für sehr leises Spiel muss mann die Orgeltastatur so zärtlich bedienen, wie ich das auf der Bühne niemals schaffen würde. Selbst mein einfaches Icon iKeyboard hat inzwischen 8 Velocity-Kurven. Das macht das Ganze natürlich kompliziert und ich möchte ja eigentlich eine Orgel haben... . Also hier ganz klar der Hinweis: nice to have.

[happyfreddy]

Das Problem der Waterfall sind die doch recht strammen Federn aufgrund der gewichteten Tasten.
Diese Zugkraft der Federn ändert sich jedoch nach längerem Gebrauch etwas.
Dein MAsterkeyboard wird möglicherweise keine gewichteten Tasten haben, folglich haben sich die Finger an den
etwas leichteren Touch gewöhnt.
Welche Dynamikkurve derzeit verwendet wird weiß ich nicht. Sicherlich kann man dies etwas ändern. Ob hier eine
Palette an Kurven als Auswahl eingerichtet werden kann weiß nur Carsten.
Tests haben jedoch ergeben, daß bei zu flacher Kurve es auf Probleme bei Pianoexpandern stößt, die dann keinen Ton
von sich geben wie er mir sagte ( werte unter 10 )

[rolandds]

HappyFreddy


I just tested the new FATAR scan routine too. ( FATAR TP/ 80 5, that i bought about 2 months ago )

There is any dynamic response now, but not enough for the latest generation of FATAR keyboards.

The have a very fast key response ( they start to play after a push down distance of ca 2 a 3mm )
and the different values of the velocity are still to much compressed in the lower area of the curve .

Due to that short travel , the HX3 thinks too early you are playing hard.
The curve has still a too much exponential character instead of linear , for this kind of keyboard

With the older FATAR keyboards (longer travel) , may be this can work.

It's surely not impossible to do this with a FATAR keyboard.

Before this HX3 had a CRUMAR MOJO ( they use also FATAR keyboards )
and that organ had a perfect midi out velocity curve, much less steep than this.

I'm shure , with a little extra effort of Carsten , the perfect solution can be reached.

Best Regards

Roland De Schutter

[happyfreddy]

I think the general problem is that everyone uses different keyboard even when
named FATAR.
For example I use a FATAR TP 80 waterfall buyed from DOEPFER.
In my first HX3 ( old mk1 version ) I used a normal keyboard with newer FATAR rubber contacts
The touch feeling resp Dynamik is different to the newer FATAR waterfall keys.

Second aspect will be the height of newer rubbercontacts and their resulting height after certain time of use.
I´m sure they will be pressed a little so the resulting height will be little less than at newer rubbercontacts.
This will be than a little longer way down to make contact with the oppisite pole.

General , we´ll see what we can do about "dynamic" . The new release from today morning is first step.........

[rolandds]

by happyfreddy » 25. Jun 2016, 02:25

I think the general problem is that everyone uses different keyboard even when named FATAR.
For example I use a FATAR TP 80 waterfall buyed from DOEPFER.
In my first HX3 ( old mk1 version ) I used a normal keyboard with newer FATAR rubber contacts
The touch feeling resp Dynamik is different to the newer FATAR waterfall keys.

Second aspect will be the height of newer rubbercontacts and their resulting height after certain time of use.
I´m sure they will be pressed a little so the resulting height will be little less than at newer rubbercontacts.
This will be than a little longer way down to make contact with the opposite pole.

General , we´ll see what we can do about "dynamic" .
The new release from today morning is first step.........

happyfreddy

The batch of keyboards, that's indeed the problem. I use a FATAR TP/80 5 that i bought about 2 months ago from DOEPFER.
Every load of FATAR keyboards is different , and has another behaviour and another touch.
I think it's their hobby to change their design every 2 weeks , without thinking of the technical complications for the users ( like this problem).

I'm shure , it's not how old the rubber contacts are ( the travel way wil not change so much, and wil become rather shorter when older )
but the distance ( and the time gap ) between the two contacts is very important .

Every batch of keyboards has another travel distance ,
and, yes, the new FATAR's have a very short way down to make contact with the opposite pole.

I know i's not the easyest situation for Carsten,
I think it would be a better solution to make the curve changeable , depending of the keyboard, FATAR has delivered to you ,
or ( better) to make a little program by which users can create or choose their own velocity curve .

( Would be very nice , and easier for the HX3 designer ...)

The new Fatarscan release from yesterday morning is indeed a first step in the good direction ,
but i think it must be made adaptable to the different kind of FATAR keyboards .

It's such a nice feature that you can use external instruments/modules together with the HX3 ,
but therefore, the dynamic response must work correctly first.

I use SampleTank app on IPAD as a sound module, whitch is equiped with dozens of extra instruments
( piano's, violins ,strings-, brass-, reed- , wind instruments etc ).

The program has a built in velocity sensitivity knob , which must be set now to the most extreme position ,
in order to have a little bit of dynamic response.
With my previous organ ( the MOJO ) it worked perfectly , in the neutral position ...


Best Regards

Roland De Schutter

[bovist]

The "missing notes" and MIDI velocity problem has been solved with FATAR ScanCore #25.

See posting viewtopic.php?f=3&t=568