Uneven HX3 drawbar response with Midi CC sets

[yubby]

Hello,
Forgive me if I am repeating any information that has previously been discussed. I own the HX3 MK3 and MK4 Expanders, 3.807. I have used most of the Midi CC sets that are pre-installed in the menu as well as a few of my own custom sets and have found consistently that the drawbar movements on the Hammond SK1, Voce V5+, Crumar Mojo and Nord Stage all seem to have very similar results in regard to syncing irregularly with the HX3.

In general, in live use (without presets) when pulling out the drawbars from a 0 setting:
0 = 0
1 = 3
2 = 4
3 = 5
4 = 6
5 = 7
6 = 7
7 = 8
8 = 8

When pushing the drawbars back in I can sometimes achieve a 1 or 2 setting on a given drawbar but not often. Is there any potential fix or adjustment that can be made with regard to these scaling values since this seems to be a consistent problem with most of the controllers I have used? The one Controller I own that does not experience this is my new Crumar / GSI DMC-122 controller - the drawbars sync perfectly with the HX3 everytime.
I'm not much of a tech, so I don't know the inner workings of the software or how the units communicate so any feedback is welcomed.

The Voce V5+ has an additional issue where every drawbar will always register a setting of "1" after pulling it out and pushing it all the way back in. This happens even after I have created presets in the HX3 to attempt to circumvent the issue.
So the Voce drawbars after initial movement are 000000000 = 111111111
This obviously could be due to some of the midi implementation in the Voce, but this problem right now is making the Voce V5 unusable as a drawbar control source for the HX3.

Thank you,
Dave

[bovist]

Dave,

the displayed Value 0..8 may differ from MIDI input due to some deviations in logarithmising the linear MIDI CC values.

When the Voce drawbars do not return to 0, they might not issue a zero value when completely pushed in.

I prepared a new firmware 3.812 (beta) in github repo. Please check if this one behaves better or worse with your controllers. It takes linear drawbar and MIDI CC db values and scales them to 0..8 for display by a simple division. Logarithmisation is done finally so the loudness curve should match the B3's drawbar loudness with HX3's linear drawbar pots.

It might be very helpful to know which MIDI CC values the common controllers do issue on each drawbar step (displayed in "MIDI Custom CC" page in HX3 Remote or MIDI-OX tool). I think some manufacturers will output MIDI CC in "loudness" levels, other manufacturers will output linear levels according to linear potentiometer voltage. Could be a matter of the company's philosophy.

[yubby]

Carsten,
Thank you for your quick response to this. I will download this beta and test it tonight and/or tomorrow and post my results. I will also forward this message to a few other users who own the Mojo, as I sold mine recently, and ask them to test this as well.

Dave Osoff

[Valpurgis]

t might be very helpful to know which MIDI CC values the common controllers do issue on each drawbar step (displayed in "MIDI Custom CC" page in HX3 Remote or MIDI-OX tool). I think some manufacturers will output MIDI CC in "loudness" levels, other manufacturers will output linear levels according to linear potentiometer voltage. Could be a matter of the company's philosophy.

I have posted earlier on this question due to adapting my HX3 expander to a Nord C2 organ. I tried both the NI B4 and the custom CC set and used MidiOx to send drawbar cc to find out how the HX3 reacted. I can confirm what Dave says, the HX3 responded in a non-linear way and I had to use a Midi Solutions Event processor in a tricky way to adapt the C2 linear steps to the HX3 midi implementation. My experience with midi drawbars are that they always send in a linear way and it is up to the soundmodule/expander/VST to implement any loudness curve or non-linear response. What differs is that some drawbar controllers sends continous cc in the range 0-127 and others sends in steps like cc value 0-16-32 etc. But the steps may differ from vendor to vendor. I plan to monitor my Nord Stage 2 and CX3 and can send the result to you via PM.

[bovist]

Pls try out new firmware #3.812 in github repo with linear drawbar MIDI CC mapping and linear display. It does logarithmic scaling close to B3 drawbar loudness curve in a final stage which does not affect display.

No need to update FPGA, just "FW update" and "Finalize".

[Valpurgis]

Just for your information, I have monitored Nord C2, Nord Stage 2 and Korg CX3:
Drawbar steps 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
All three sends the same discrete step values: 0, 16, 32, 48, 64, 80, 96, 112, 127

Another areas of confusion/inconsistence I have experienced and therefor monitored:
Percussion parameters:
Soft on/off: Nord 0/127, CX3 127/0
Fast on/off: Nord 127/0, CX3 127/0
Third on/off: Nord 127/0, CX3 0/127
Chorus/Vibrato:
V1, C1, V2, C2, V3, C3:
Nord: 0, 26, 51, 77, 102, 127
CX3: 0, 26, 51, 76, 101, 127

The Nords also sends drawbar information in the midi channel dedicated for the manual, typical midichannel 1 for upper manual drawbars, channel 2 for lower manual drawbars and channel 3 for pedal drawbars. This means that to make a custom cc set on the Expander adaptable for any midi keyboard controller it should be programmable for "channel associated signalling" ie allow to allocate midichannel to the different cc settings. As you see on above monitoring on percussion settings some manufacturers use inverted toggling of on/off (some use 127/0 and sometime 0/127).

To adjust all this I ended up by using a midi translator device to adapt the Nord C2 to the HX3 expander. Would be happy if this translation could be handled by the HX3 directly.

[m_g]

Hi Carsten,

just checked the 3.812 with MK4 Expander and Midicontroller (keyboardpartner ZR) mit
NI4 CC set:

Worked Fine !!
Drawbar Values correspond to Display Values (in and out movement!)

Preset/Percussion-Bug solved !

For "hardcore distortion lovers":
Vol Amp full, and trim swell full and all drawbars out and so on.
you could have clippimg in the last octave, I reduced parameter #607 Leslie input level from
145 to 100, this solved the clipping.
But thats an extreme setting.... maybe not that relevant under "normal" playing.
;-)

Now that my setup works fine:
NEVER touch a running system!
;-)
cheers
Markus

[yubby]

Hello Carsten,
i Downloaded the beta 3.812 last night and noticed the drawbars positions 1-8 were more even with my Hammond SK1 drawbar movements but also heard an audible 'stepping up' for each stop. The midi CC in the remote software lists:
16, 32, 48, 64, 80, 96, 112, 127 etc for each drawbar movement.

However I have a few new problems. First I downloaded the latest 3.812 FW that you uploaded earlier today and after updating, my license numbers were not transferred. Furthermore, for some reason the Remote software won't allow me to manually input my name and license numbers. So the unit is currently producing no sound and now the drawbar movements on the SK1 are moving the pedal drawbars on midi CH 1. I also just attempted to re-install the same 3.812 FW and got an error message: 253 ist kein gultiger integerwert. If I can sort this out I will teszt the Unit tonight with my Voce and Nord keyboards as well.

My MK4 unit is serial number:13820386

Thank you for your assistance,
Dave Osoff

[m_g]

Hi Dave,

had the same problems when updating.
I just ignored the integer error.

I had to input the serial numbers manually too.
But it worked only in the "advanced" sheet not on the main remote page.
(you find your ser numbers on your invoice)

Then everything worked fine.

Markus

[yubby]

M.G.,
Thanks for the tip - the licenses now work; I entered them on the advanced page. The SK1 and Nord Stage seem to be much more responsive now to the drawbar movements. I will test them more later but this fix seems to be a winner. Thanks Carsten.

But for some reason my Voce V5+ is now not working with the HX3 via midi. It's not a problem with the Voce. The HX3 is not even receiving midi from the Voce which is strange, as it does work via midi with my other keyboards. I'll also test that more later tonight when I have time and will also try the new FW out with my DB1 drawbars.