Percussion on "A" drawbar set

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Re: Percussion on "A" drawbar set

Beitrag von Bexos » 6. Mär 2018, 08:53

Hello . I come back to you to find out if someone has found an easy solution to switch from A to B without the percussion remaining; I want to use as you Viscount Legend live as controller.I have of course noticed that when using the A / B switch it only changes the state of drawbars. I tried to send a program change on channel 1, but to my surprise, it only changes the program on the lower keyboard. I did not find the solution. Maybe you have advanced on this topic ....

Re: Percussion on "A" drawbar set

Beitrag von Drawbi » 17. Jul 2017, 10:53

Hello Michael,

it is possible to play a HX3 expander like a "real B3" via MIDI, but you have to build a special controller. Here is my result; the B3-Controller-Cheap-Trick-Prototype:

You need:
Four sets of drawbars (from my box of odds and sods)
Doepfer USB64 (I had to buy this...)
A few switches for vibrato and percussion
A 6 position rotary switch for vibrato setting
Two 2-poles switches (for A/B drawbar switching and cancelling percussion)
Some ICs with analog switches (I use CD4066)
Cables and resistors
A custom MIDI-CC set

a.jpg


The Doepfer USB will generate the controller messages depending on the setting of the drawbars and different switches. I use controller number 72 and up. Avoid using CC#7 and CC#11 (see HX3 Expander manual). The inputs of the Doepfer USB64 are connected to the different switches and drawbars.

The vibrato setting is realized by a six position rotary switch with 6 different resistors and a ground resistor (adjustable voltage divider) to obtain different output voltages. The controller in the CC set is set to "Vibrato Knob".

b.jpg


To switch between the drawbar sets A and B I use some CMOS analog switches (4066). The are cheap and work well. The outputs of two switches are connected together. Input of switch "A" is e.g. connected to drawbar 16' from set A and the input of switch "B" is connected to drawbar 16' from set B. The 2-poles switch is connected to the control lines of these two groups of switches for set A and B. The control line of drawbar set B is pulled up by a 10k resistor and the switch will ground this line when switched to set A. The other way around the control line of set A is pulled down by a 10k resistor and the 2-poles switch will pull it up to 5 Volts when switched to set A. The output voltage of these CMOS analog switches will change every time when set A or B is choosen and the controller will send the corresponding midi control messages. The 2-poles switch will also disconnect the 5 Volts line to the percussion switch when set A is active; so percussion is disabled in this case.

Preset switching can by done by my organ, a doepfer CTM64 or by using multiplexer ICs instead of the CD4066 and a hard wired resistor matrix (a little bit like the original thing ;-))

c.jpg

Re: Percussion on "A" drawbar set

Beitrag von PortlandMike » 3. Jun 2017, 13:55

Thanks, Drawbi! I was starting to come to the same conclusion – that the expander won't work that way. I also realized that the custom MIDI CC only accepts CC's on channel 1, as far as I can tell, so I can't use it with the Keyb Legend Live. I might consider selling both and buying a Mag organ... we'll see. I seem only to learn after making expensive mistakes!

Edit: I am going to to see if I can use MIDI processing/ perhaps the Midi Solutions Event Processor Plus to achieve the desired effect (maybe having the A# preset and other presets besides B also send a "program change" message, to remove it from the "live" setting... hopefully the timing will work so that the drawbar information also affects that same "common preset" that the program change brings up. If not, perhaps I can orchestrate a delay, or have it resend the drawbar information.

Re: Percussion on "A" drawbar set

Beitrag von Drawbi » 3. Jun 2017, 13:17

Hello Michael,

yes, I think the HX3 can support four sets of drawbars.
BUT
not via midi.

Have a look on the MAG-Organs website: http://www.magorgans.com/?page_id=691
I think this baby has a HX3 engine build in and has four sets of drawbars.

At the Keyboardpartner Github respository you will find the schematic for the drawbar sets:
https://github.com/keyboardpartner/HX3/ ... ematic.pdf

I think (I think means = I do not know) the technology behind it is working this way: There are two sets of drawbars and an A/B switch where you can choose which set of drawbar is active. This A/B switch sends also an information to the HX3 sound engine to cancel the percussion depending on the selected drawbar set. There are three CD4053 ICs. They switch between the two sets of drawbars. These two sets of drawbars control the volume of the different footages by a control voltage on the slider. This control voltage is switched by the CD4053. When you switch from A to B the HX3 Sound Engine is told "Enable the percussion and adjust the footage to the new volume levels!"

Midi controlling works a little bit different: When you start the HX3 Remote application and choose the "Midi Custom CC" tab, you can see the controllers and the assigned controller numbers. There is only one set of drawbars for each manual. Each footage has one controller number assigned. Midi controllers do not send permanent information. The Information is only sent, when you activate the controller by pressing a button or sliding a slider. The informtion flows only in one direction; from the controller to the HX3 expander. You can not manage two sets of drawbars with one controller. The problem is: When you set drawbar set A to 888888888 and set B to 111111111 the silders on your midi controller keep in the "111111111" position when you switch back to set A. If you move a slider from "1" to "2" position the will send the information of position "2". The setting aof drawbar set A was "888888888", so the value of this slider will jump from 8 to 2 and not to 7...

There are two ways to solve this problem: Keyboardpartner updates his software / firmware and implements a second sets of drawbars in the CC map where you can assign different CC numbers. Two switches with different CC controller numbers to switch between the drawbar sets A and B for UM and LM are also needed. The second way is to build a midi controller that will do the same job the Kexboardpartner hardware does: To send all values of all necessary controllers when you switch between the two drawbar sets.

I started building a controller which is working that way, but it will take some time for me to finish this project.

Yeah, HX3 is a great sounding Hammond clone and the idea behind it is brilliant, the developer a genius! But VIA MIDI is is not playable like a Hammond at all (at the moment). I'm also a little bit disappointed about that. A Midi Implementation Chart in the User Manual is missing, so I did not know that fact before buying the Expander.

Perhaps this feature will be integrated during the next updates... Hope so. Or I will sell it and keep my VB3.

Re: Percussion on "A" drawbar set

Beitrag von PortlandMike » 2. Jun 2017, 13:46

Yes, I can experiment with it. Perhaps there is a way for me to achieve what I want with a parameter in there.

Re: Percussion on "A" drawbar set

Beitrag von Drawbi » 2. Jun 2017, 08:04

Hello Michael,

are you familiar with "HX3 Remote" software?

Re: Percussion on "A" drawbar set

Beitrag von PortlandMike » 2. Jun 2017, 05:23

Thanks, Drawbi. Your English is good. I understand what you are describing, but I have usually used presets with saving tabs "off" when I was using a different controller and sending program changes for presets. I hardly use presets except switching between A and B drawbar sets. Also, the Legend Live doesn't transmit program change information.

The Legend Live has 4 sets of drawbars, just like a B3. The issue I am having is that percussion works on both sets of drawbars, rather than just the "B" preset (LED buttons to select A and B drawbar sets). It also is active on the presets 1 and 2 (also LED button). I am wondering if there is a way to get everything except for the "B" preset on the upper manual to have percussion disabled, just like on a B3 with latching presets. That's how I am accustomed to playing, and I usually don't want percussion when I am switching to an upper manual comping sound, squabbling, or full drawbars. It significantly slows me down if I have to turn the percussion off, which is on the far right side of the keyboard, and then select the preset on the far left. If I want to switch back to soloing with percussion, I have to repeat the process.

Is this impossible on keyboard such as mine? Do people with the Nord CD2/ other clonewheels with 4 sets of drawbars but without latching preset keys have the same problem?

Thanks,
Michael

PS I am truly enjoying 4.22 and the wonderful chorus! I think it's the best on the market. I am tempted to try 4.25 but was hesitant because of reported issues in these forums. I will wait until after a gig Saturday. Also, I am using the Mini Vent II, which I received today, which is lovely!

Re: Percussion on "A" drawbar set

Beitrag von Drawbi » 1. Jun 2017, 19:39

Hello PortlandMike,

I do not know the features of the HX3 (plexi) Expander. I have bought the HX3 Drawbar Expander but I think the internal settings are nearly the same. I took a look at the manual of the legend live and also read the midi implementation chart. This Instrument will not send program change messages. Unfortunately there is no midi implementation chart for the HX3 Expander. The Expander has 15 internal presets. You can choose if the percussion and vibrato settings will be stored or not (like the real B3 Presets). I have updated to v4.25. Preset 0 is the live setting. You have to send program change 0 to select UM preset 0. UM Presets 1 - 11 are selected if you send program change 1 - 11. It is not possible (at this time) to choose preset 12 - 15 via midi! Program change 12 will select LM Preset 0 and program change 13 - 23 will select LM presets 1 - 11. LM presets 12 - 15 can also not be selected by midi program change!

Presets 1 - 15 are fixed settings of drawbars. I have never found a 2nd set of drawbars like on a B3. There are also no midi cc messages selectable for a 2nd set of drawbars. Sending control change CC 25 0 - 10 will change the LM 2 2/3 Drabar to 0; CC25 11 will set the drawbar to 1 (with the default NI B4 CC setting)...

I can save a percussion (or vibrato) setting in preset 1 (e.g. 2nd, slow) and another setting (e.g. 3rd, fast) in preset 2. Preset 0 (the live preset) has no vibrato and no percussion. When I select preset 1 via midi program change 1 the percussion will be set like programmed in this preset before. When I change back to preset 0 via program change 0 the drawbar setting of preset 0 is recalled but the percussion setting of preset 1 (2nd, slow) is still active. The same effect on preset 2: When I select preset 2 and switch back to the live preset, the drawbar setting is switched to preset 0 and the percussion setting of preset 2 (3rd, fast) is active.

Do you have the same problem?

Sorry for my bad English. Hope you will understand what I wanted to explain.

Re: Percussion on "A" drawbar set

Beitrag von Drawbi » 1. Jun 2017, 08:05

Hello PortlandMike,

HX3 and MiniVent II is an excellent combination! The integrated Leslie Simulation in the HX3 is very good but HX3 in combination with MiniVent it's even better (my personal oppinion)! I use two settings on my HX3 Drawbar Expander: Main out without Preamp Simulation and with Preamp Simulation. On the MiniVent you have the Option to cancel the cabinet simulation. This is my MiniVent "A" setting with a little overdrive. The "B" setting is with cabinet simulation and a little more distortion. Sounds Great! Mostly I use the HX3 only with vibrato settings and and Leslie sim stopped. This is more "Klaus Wunderlich"-Style.

Have also Problems with the Percussion settings on the presets while switching. First I will check the Manual. Talk to you soon...

Re: Percussion on "A" drawbar set

Beitrag von PortlandMike » 31. Mai 2017, 18:17

EDIT: After upgrading to FW 4.22/FGPA 10102016 I am really happy with the sound! I was on FW 3.92/ FGPA 11042016 and didn't realize it. The keyclick on 4.22/10102016 wasn't to my liking- something sounded a little off. I changed it to ContSpringFlx= 3 and ContSpringDmp= 10. This sounds close enough to my 1962 Hammond C3/ 1958 Leslie 51C, and very musical to my ears. I may try and tweak the C/V settings just a little at some point in the future. I think they are the closest I've heard to the real thing of any clone! I also turned the TubeAmp gain to 81, which gives it some really nice and warm low-level tube distortion— similar to my Leslie turned 7/10 the way up, with the way my C3's tone trim pot is set.

I've ordered a Neo Mini Vent II, and am excited to try it out. Everything else about my HX3 sounds incredibly close to the real thing. I run sound in mono, so I know I won't be able to get a perfect Leslie recreation. Side note— I use the FBT Vertus CS1000. Incredible for organ (and for acoustic piano/ other keyboard sounds). Has fat bass (I turn the subwoofer up one notch from unity) and a very flat frequency response, if you can stand playing in mono.

I am still hoping I can do something about turning the percussion off on "A" drawbar bank and presets. The percussion still triggers with "local off", but the drawbars don't.

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